[Zz] Iron Farming!

[ABParadigm]

I would like to start off by saying I firmly agree that some source of iron should be added, whether it be introduced by piglins, golems, zombies, or other methods. I think with recent updates there has been an increasing need for iron, from lanterns, to chains, to blast furnaces, to smithing tables. I think "because we've never had iron farming before" is a bad mindset because clearly the game has changed, and something as it was in 1.4 is considerably different 12 full releases later. Times change, we probably should too.

I'd like to add that the next point of this post is going to be solely from my experience playing Zurvival, and what I have experienced.

On Zz, I have mined a little over 16,000 iron ore. As far as I am aware i have never placed iron ore and mined it again, maybe once or twice but never enough to significantly skew that stat as I would have silk touching and later fortuning diamond ore. In my time I have never really considered myself short on iron, I always had enough for anvils, or hoppers, or pistons. As of late, however, I have been attempting to upgrade some mini-bases with full beacon pyramids, and I realized just how outmatched I was in terms of resources. A full beacon pyramid requires two stacks plus 36 iron blocks, and that isn't even considering the fact you need even more to make every effect on multiple beacons possible. I think realistically, it would be invaluable to be able to farm iron on a scale that allows me to upgrade full beacon pyramids, but much to Mell's point I think getting it handed to me on a silver platter would greatly diminish how impressive it looks. I think right now we're lacking a fundamental piece of the endgame puzzle in iron acquisition, and even though zombies drop iron ingots, the rate they drop it is so astronomically low that it makes it just plain stupid when you can go caving or beacon mine a large chunk of the underground to acquire iron at a considerably faster rate, at the cost of a few pickaxes and ender ender trips. The iron I've acquired has all been through caving, bar maybe a couple hundred which was acquired through branch mining methods. To this day I still enjoy caving, I enjoy the fact a creeper might catch me off guard and knock me into a bunch of skeletons. I'm not sure if that rush will ever go away, I just like to find ores. It's how I play.

The next part of this post refers to my experience on LVS, and how I believe it relates to Zz.

On LVS, I farm, and farm, and farm, and farm, and farm. I gather items for the sake of gathering items. I sell them to the community, but much of the time I have an over abundance of everything and I like the fact I can honestly tell myself I can do anything if I put my mind to it, just because I have the items to do it. Recently I created a 24-cell iron farm that makes so much iron that I can probably use iron blocks as someone else might use stone blocks and I probably wouldn't even make a dent in my supply. I think that's awesome, that it's possible to do that in vanilla minecraft, but sometimes I think about how much effort it took to create that farm and it saddens me that such little effort can produce such a ridiculous amount of iron. I think this is why I like LVS and Zz, because they are so different to me. This isn't to say Zz shouldn't be for the farmers, and that LVS shouldn't be for the explorers. I just think Zz and LVS are so different now, that we can't say "it's like this in vanilla minecraft" when frankly, Zz isn't vanilla minecraft. On Zz we have region posts, homes, claims. Simply adding something in because it's like that in vanilla just doesn't sit right with me.

So, what do we do about iron on Zz?

I think simply switching on iron drops is a bad course of action. I also think turning iron nuggets on with bartering would be very helpful, and to that end I think we should do it. That being said, to Tezcatlip's point, it just wouldn't produce the amount of iron that certain endgame tasks necessitate. How do we fix it? I think the solution is to turn on iron golem drops, but either change the item they drop to iron nuggets, or change the drop rate of iron ingots from golems down to one ingot per golem, rather than 3-5 as it is in vanilla. I also think that it should be somehow tweaked so giant iron farms cannot spawn multiple golems at once, say one can only spawn at a time within the render distance, and until the newly spawned golem dies, no more would spawn. That would ensure that your rates would only be as fast as your golem can die.

I don't really know where we'll be going forward, I just think that it's wrong to not have iron not more easily attainable when the direction the game is headed seems to be reliant on iron in some form.

[Tezcatlip]

First, to adress the shopping plugin it has been down for years now with minor reappearing. So, I percieve all mentioning of it as "if", rather than "when". I had considered before to build some sort of a mall with dispensers to rent for other players to trade as a redstone alternative to shopping plugin. But than I don't have anywhere near enough iron to build it. Yet, I would probably still be too lazy to build it even if I had a major surpluss of iron.

Second, hoppers aren't that evil. Hopper limit is a very weird rule, because as a general rule compact machine is a server friendly machine. Hopper limit makes compact contraptions spread across several chunks, which leads to an increase in stress on the server's cpu. In many ways the design is more essential than the amount of hoppers. It is possible to lag the server to a noticable performance issues with just on chunk of these 20 hoppers and just a bunch of chest, not even redstone or entities are required, yet 100 hoppers set up in a different way will not produce anything remotely noticable. And that is precisely, why I have vouched for implementation of some sort of performance signaling. And there is a very important note to be made here: bartering-gold farm duo is a very (calculation) resource demanding setup, much less server friendly than the golem-based farming.

Third, regarding the idea of diamond sliver. I believe Treis has estimated it being as valuable as 2 iron ingots right now and called it "reasonable". 9 slivers are more available than a fully-sized diamond and can be traded for a less valuable item. That was my idea of giving up on an iron standart in favour of diamond only, which would be able to support small trades and more accessible to newer players. But I should admit that even at the first 5 hours of in-game on the server I would not fit the proposed description of the "new player", so I can only imagine, what kind of animal are they and that's the question better be asked actual new players about. I don't know what was the trading experience of all other participants on Zz in the past month, but mine involved a couple 20 dia trades in chat, 32 dia block one, multiple dia trades through chests and I have also bought out Treis' iron, excluding the last one no iron was involved. Keep in mind that I also provide a valuable trading options for both white and green players alike, while, I believe (correct me, if I'm wrong), Zen market for zedlings and higher only.

Fourth, fully aknowledging how hostile majority of the most vocal players on the server towards farming , I have purposed non-vanilla alternatives to the problem. I appreciate rockognition of one of my ideas, while I would be very happy to see other interesting and creative ideas. I really think there might be some worthy hidden solutions here.

Fifth, ender farms... The core principle is simple, that is true, but just look at the 4 (or is it 5 nowadays?) ender farms we have. There is a reason, why Shaw's farm has a significantly higher rates than others, yet it still can be improved even further, look at all the guys teleporting away for example. Even farms as simplistic as ender farms can be made in a variety of ways, they still present a lot of room for creativity. Try building one, F it up and try it again, it is much more enjoable, than you might think.

Finally, adressing AB's split server personality. I don't think that luxury of having two servers each with its own purpose is a very healthy habbit for all the players, though I should admit I don't go adventuring and exploring in Minecraft, because if I get that kind of cravings I play games that actualy implement it well, so unwillingly I could relate. I probably could fully move to lvs and abandon zz, if Zed would be so kind to provide me with the a copy of my region for me to play in singleplayer. Still I have never been impressed by quad beacons, not even knowing that iron drops were disabled. I wouldn't be impressed of a netherite quad beacon, but I would probably despise the flex. In my point of view the one, willing to make a huge charcaterless, mindless and inefficient work, deserves the pity rather than an applaud, but I do value the designs. I was freaked out by a dragon egg combined with quartz pillar to form a table lamp, when I have first seen it. I was greatly impressed by simplicity and elegance of the shulker sorter as well. Fence out of anvils? - Maybe slightly impressive in terms of grind, but the design! I cannot approve grind becoming more worthy than the creativity.

As of limitations I can't say how feasible one golem per farm would be, that's up to Zed, but I can already see one stray golem disabling all the farms in the region. Moving from typical server policies, maybe some could be extended as server rules like no fully afkable farms. Tweaking rates? - Wasn't it the idea behind the Zed's request to see the comparison of rates from various methods? Mojang aren't fools as well, they balance stuff too.

[Mellorian]

Second, hoppers aren't that evil. Hopper limit is a very weird rule, because as a general rule compact machine is a server friendly machine.

You should comment here for that. But also be aware that it is rare for players to be redstone savy, and some would simply fill as much an area with hoppers as they could - and do so even now across chunk corners. This feeds into your mentioning of some sort of feedback for lag causing, which could be a good solution, and would perhaps make people more conscious of how they make something.

Keep in mind that I also provide a valuable trading options for both white and green players alike, while, I believe (correct me, if I'm wrong), Zen market for zedlings and higher only.

Zen is for Zedlings and higher, yes, but 15 hours isn't that long in the scheme of things, and doesn't guarantee that the players would have the capabilities of acquiring diamonds at any satisfactory rate. Having iron trades also cater towards those who die with everything of value they own on them, for some reason, which happens surprisingly often.

Fifth, ender farms... The core principle is simple, that is true, but just look at the 4 (or is it 5 nowadays?) ender farms we have. There is a reason, why Shaw's farm has a significantly higher rates than others, yet it still can be improved even further, look at all the guys teleporting away for example. Even farms as simplistic as ender farms can be made in a variety of ways, they still present a lot of room for creativity. Try building one, F it up and try it again, it is much more enjoable, than you might think.

Though I may not share it, I can understand the want to improve farms completely, and I do appreciate it. My statement against enderman farms was more based on how they are in the server currently. They already produce at a crazy rate, and yet - as you've pointed out - they are far from as efficient as they can be. This is unbalanced in my opinion.

Fourth, fully aknowledging how hostile majority of the most vocal players on the server towards farming

I apologise if anything brought here has been hostile, that was never my, nor hopefully anyone's, intention. I personally do want everyone's playstyles to be complimented, and I am trying my hardest to understand every perspective shown, while also presenting mine completely as is. I also believe firmly that this isn't a vote. It is a discussion and, as others have stated, if it leads towards us looking at enabling golem farms or anything of the like, I will not be against it, no matter my personal views. Iron farming has been brought up several times in the past, and no matter what outcome we reach here, I believe it will likely be brought up again in the future.

In my point of view the one, willing to make a huge charcaterless, mindless and inefficient work, deserves the pity rather than an applaud

I can understand this opinion, especially after your brilliant explanation of what you find wonderful about working on farms, however I do disagree with it. An opinion of my own I'm trying hard to fight is that people who don't want to go mining for iron, or who use farms, are lazy and don't want to do anything themselves. This is clearly erroneous, as you've pointed out yourself, since they do put the effort in - into designing and refining the farms themselves.

[Zedwick]

Thank you all for discussing this topic, and giving respect to each other's opinions. I don't yet have much to say to each of your points, but I am reading everything you've said.

I do have one question for you all: What would you say is the current conversion rate between diamond, iron and gold on Zz?

[Tezcatlip]

I believe Treis is converting at a rate of 1 to 24, 28 to 1, more thorough discussion should be hold with the owner this monopoly howerver. Apparently there are several other dubious conversions, like buying an iron ingot for 3 emeralds, though in all fairness emeralds are dirt cheap... Personally as of now I would consider buying iron on 1 to 5 trade, won't clear stock on a daily basis, but I find it acceptable, but keep in mind that I do not represent coomon Zz folk and have a surpluss of diamonds enough to crush economy of a small country. Unfortunatelly I can't say that any of the current core Zz players, besides Mell and maybe me (if I can even be considered an active Zz community member), have expressed their opinion regarding the topic.

[Mellorian]

I've been thinking about this topic a lot lately, and I believe I've settled on a stance I'd like to take, that I hope is truthful to my own feelings, yet is fair to other's too.

While I personally do not like farms, often avoiding using them (though I'm far from infallible and may make use of the occasional skeleton spawner or prismarine p... er, perpetuate?), and I still firmly believe you can get more than enough iron from mining alone, I know for a fact that this alone is no reason to deny others the aspects of the game they find interest in - and while I may not have nor want the power to deny that, it would be untrue to my own morals to parade my opposition on this alone, lest it effect any such decisions.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, unless iron golem farms would have a noticeable, adverse effect on the server as a community, I do not feel it is fair to continue to disable them, despite my own misgivings.

The only truly adverse communal effect we've specifically talked on is in trading, though lag has been mentioned in the past - however newer iron farms no longer seem to hold this same issue as the appropriately named "Moredoors" of old, newer ones being much more efficient in terms of server resources.

I am not as knowledgeable in trading as others, and so I will not attempt to make insight into the effect iron farming would have, but I also would like to observe that Zz is different to Lvs in many ways, and I do not believe iron farming is the sole reason their prices are so much higher.

In the end, unless we can agree on iron golem farms being undesirable for our community as one whole, I am firmly for having them, though not to use myself. (I also think we've sort of made the point that iron nuggets in bartering are barely effective as a farming method - requiring immense amounts of gold, regardless of the farm's speed, for any substantial amount of iron - and so we should probably just enable them anyway.)

What would you say is the current conversion rate between diamond, iron and gold on Zz?

I'd say gold is definitely worth less since the nether update.

If I wanted to buy a double chest of gravel, I'd probably feel comfortable with paying nine iron blocks, or a block of diamonds, which I suppose equates to 1 diamond = nine iron ingots. But I'm silly and find diamonds worthless since they don't craft anything you can't get in a better manner, aside from jukeboxes.

I'd probably place gold at four gold ingots per iron ingot.

But as I've mentioned before, I'm not too knowledgeable on trading, and tend to prefer private exchanges of things both players need in that moment, rather than a separate currency.

[Mellorian]

I believe Treis is converting at a rate of 1 to 24, 28 to 1, more thorough discussion should be hold with the owner this monopoly howerver. Apparently there are several other dubious conversions, like buying an iron ingot for 3 emeralds, though in all fairness emeralds are dirt cheap...

I know Treis has adjusted her prices over time depending on how many diamonds were bought versus iron.
I also would not take Pulsater's pricing as gospel, as it was never stocked to a satisfying rate, and as such was never really indicative of the market's prices.

Unfortunatelly I can't say that any of the current core Zz players, besides Mell and maybe me (if I can even be considered an active Zz community member), have expressed their opinion regarding the topic.

It does seem as if many of the newer players aren't aware of, or at least do not get involved in the forum/wiki, which is somewhat sad, as their point of view does matter too. I suppose this is perhaps a topic we can discuss in the next meeting though - getting players more involved/aware of our other avenues of discussion and general communication.

[Dax23333]

I feel like we're getting somewhere here. Is it correct to think nobody is against enabling iron from bartering?

Questions on the situation here, as context is important:
The hopper limit - is this still 20 hoppers per chunk? Despite this do people build large item sorters on Zz? With such a low limit an inefficient design would be required, assuming 1 hopper per item sorter with a row of hoppers above them transporting.

Iron golems not dropping iron has been in place since at least 1.6, is this correct? Since 1.6 the only iron sinks that I would call significant are lanterns, chains and possibly shears (I know not new, but automated usage with bees and wool makes them more of a sink) with the major redstone components (hoppers) being around before then. Overall I think it'd be fair to say iron demand has increased mostly in the decorative department from the new blocks added.

With regards to trading your prices mentioned of 9-28 iron per diamond is (apart from being really huge in variation) not too different from LVS prices. I guess the market somehow isn't being flooded with huge quantities of cheap iron? Although the LVS Market has historically maintained prices rather than undercutting people, which is frowned upon and leads to much moaning. Maybe if you have an iron farm you don't buy iron, so the market sells it only to those without which maintains the value regardless of how it was obtained? Are people with iron farms building them from necessity and using the iron themselves? I think I am - hoppers and beacons sink most of mine. This suggests the economic reasons may well not be valid.

The other question is why should the economic value of iron be protected so preciously?

[Mellorian]

The hopper limit - is this still 20 hoppers per chunk? Despite this do people build large item sorters on Zz? With such a low limit an inefficient design would be required, assuming 1 hopper per item sorter with a row of hoppers above them transporting.

Here is the topic we had for that. We expanded the limit to allow for more efficient sorters. (See last reply).

The other question is why should the economic value of iron be protected so preciously?

The main reason we’ve stated is to provide newer players, or older players who have had bad luck, with the ability to trade.
Diamonds are much more accessible with a mid to end game set-up - especially considering they are fortunable - whereas iron currently puts everyone at a mostly equal footing.

[Tezcatlip]

While I feel the disscussion slowly moves towards myths about hoppers, I should probably explain, why most of this is a total nonsense nowadays.

Since 1.16 minecraft can (finally!) show server performace values (via mspt) in f3 menu in singleplayer (not available on the server from clientside, pretty pls, Zed! pls!) without extensive commands and mods. Fps values, while somewhat representative at the most lag heavy enviroment represent only clientside and also drop, while just looking through the glass and leaves or on chests, anvils, hoppers etc.

As of right now (this morning) on my pc 100x100 open hoppers on standby consume a net of 13 mspt, at values above 50 mspt server starts to stutter, below - perfectly fine. For reference a hundred chickens take 4 mspt, so 1 hopper = 0.0325 chicken in terms of performance. Chicken values, while not very precise will allow to understand the scale of performance hunger of things. My pc can handle about 1250 chickens without performance degradation, excluding collisions and cramming, which will probably reduce the maximum chicken value.

Covering with droppers will improve the performance by x2 times, if hoppers on standby. Active (transmitting items) hoppers however, to my personal surprise, show performance improvement to the 0.0125 chicken per hopper, while uncovered with a mere 25% improvement, if covered. Disabled hoppers produce no lag. Apparantly Mojang also fixxed mixed jammed hoppers, that used to be able to noticably slow the game, when the game had over 10 of these bad boys. It seems that at the very least several dozens of them do not affect the performance today in any way (Yay!). Upd: Further testing shows 3 chicken per 1 jammed mixxed hopper, significantly better than before, but still rather laggy.

As of other collection methods: hoppercart in any state(moving, pulling, on standby) produces about 0.25-0.5 worth of chicken lag. Water streams transport items as entities, which produce about 0.5 of chicken power each. Hoppercart collection systems also allow items to be kept in entity state for quite some time. In other words 16x16 farm with hopper collection system produces 3.2 to 8.32 of chicken lag, while hopper cart has about 0.5 as a baseline and worsens by each suspended item. In case of farms with mixxed drops (simillar items try to stack together into single entity if nearby) that means that in some cases 256 hoppers will lag less than a cart collection system. And even then the farm will be less laggy than a lawn with several moos.

Hoppers nowadays are very optimized, while entities, and probably water updates seem to remain rather laggy. Do spawning chunks move with world spawn on Zz? If so, then knowing that there are some very dense animal farms around the current spawn, I would even speculate that these might be the most dangerous culprit of lag on the server as they are permaloaded.

As of hopper per chunk limit... I surely had to warok around it while designing my sorting systems specifiaclly to fit the rule. It does obey the rule, but is very likely to be less laggy, if was allowed to be built in a mor ecompact manner. Also basic sorter requires 2 hoppers per item + a supply chain hopper, not 1, though there are more complicated designs that can use 1 hopper per item, but usually they are vertical, which is kinda ironic assuming that hopper rule is "horizontal". Even before the main lagger was redstone dust, not hoppers, though dust had a series of performance improvements lately.

Taking into consideration the aquired values in relation to the topic. The most basic 1 cell of contemrorary iron farm will work at around 5-ish chicken power, progressing somewhat linearly with addition of extra cells. Gold farm's mninmum lag will depend on the design, but each spawn is over a chicken (spawn cycle also consumes some calculation power). With mob cap of 70 per player the farm will top at around 70ish chicken power per player online. Single pigling bartering is around 2 chickens. So neither of the farms will be likely to paralyze the server, but golems will be significantly milder.

In addition I should mention that the test were performed on pure vanilla singlplayer, while server runs at paperMC? The performance and optimization values may vary greatly on the server.