[Zz] Pre-agenda, 1st August 2020

[Mellorian]

Post any topics/apologies here!

Zedkin Members:
Treiskaideka
Dogzack123
Mellorian
SneakySkeleton

[Tezcatlip]

I have 3 topics to suggest:

• There is a light level glitch, which I have mentioned in the post viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3349. It might affect a larger portion of the server than I have initially expected. A lot of other people might be affected by the issue whithout even knowing about it. Currently I am wondering, whether there is a non-manual solutuion to the problem. Looking for the issue found a simmilar bug in earlier versions, solution included something to do with cache, but I will not speculate any more about the backend of the problem.
• Claim explosion rule seems to autoreset upon server reset. Is it a bug or a feature? As a side note: does tnt keep being primed for a longer time on the server than in an empty vanilla single player world?
• As updates come iron becomes a more valuable resource. So far a single chain requires ~1.2 iron ingots, lantern 0.9, smithing table 2 per block and so on. The demand grows not only among people, who use redstone and anvils as decorations, while Treis controls arguably the only non-mining source of iron on the server. Some level of iron acquisition should be availble to the players. There was an arguement about problems of trading, but let's face the truth trading on the server is almost non-existant, definetely not in iron. Can't say about "typical new player experience" (are new players even permitted to have a stall or trade in Zen?), but if EXTREME unavailability to new players is a real issue, server could introduce diamond slivers (as 1/9 of a single diamond) or something like that. As of iron farms (that are probably less laggy than before) condemned by the officials for reasons I am not aware, there are other options. If iron drops will remain disabled blacksmith's iron trade can be reversed to give iron in exchange for emeralds, or add a stack of iron to travelling merchant list of trades or add iron to a hostile mob droplist or add iron to some other source. Exsessive mining is tedious and boring, so far I am really considering designs to farm iron from zombies.

P.S. Also I am very dissapointed in our community for the lack of rightious wrath about disabling iron nuggets from pigling bartering: it will make books and obsidian more common from bartering than intended by the holy vanilla, which is OP! The most OP on our beloved non-vanilla server in the most competitive pvp game in the Universe! We surely should disable the bartering altogether as our fathers and their fathers did not have bartering!

[Mellorian]

Exsessive mining is tedious and boring, so far I am really considering designs to farm iron from zombies.

Aside from all other arguments/discussion points, I feel this is the main part for me:

You can get a more than decent amount of iron from mining, and mining is a key part to the game.

You can get renewable iron from zombies.

Not to ignore all your other points, I think you've offered valuable insight and suggestions, which we can definitely discuss in the meetings.

I'm going to assume the post script was in humour, but I do understand the frustration there. There is not, in my opinion, a black and white line between vanilla and non-vanilla. I personally believe Zed was right to remove iron nuggets from bartering (after the iron nuggets being pointed out by another player), since it followed our community's decisions in the past. Whether those decisions are no longer for the best, and should be overturned now, is a different matter entirely that I think we're all willing to talk about.

[ABParadigm]

In terms of my experience on LVS and Zz, I might be able to offer some insight here.

I play LVS for the joy of farming, I play it because I enjoy that part of the game.

I play Zz for the joy of exploring, I play it because I enjoy that part of the game.

This isn't to say that Zz shouldn't have both, I just think when you have built such a strong community on the basis that iron farming was disabled and was always a highly sought after resource, that it should be considered as such and that iron golem drops should not be simply turned on.

I feel like the best of both worlds would be to allow piglin bartering iron nugget drops, this would both allow highly experienced and technical players to farm lots of gold and then throw it at a bunch of piglins, and also allow the adventuring players to mine for nether gold ore for their iron.

I understand that we shouldn't use "it's this way because it's always been this way" as an excuse to keep it that way, but I do think it should be considered in the final argument here. I think at this stage, we should allow iron farming on some level, especially with how new items seem to need more and more iron. I just think being able to make iron farms on ridiculous scales is a bad choice of action.

[SneakySkeleton]

Happy to see we have some good topics for Zedkins.

I have experienced the lighting bug on LVS as well. As mentioned on the topic, it is fixable by just giving a block update, but if there is a long term solution for this that would be great. Creepers have surprised me on multiple occasions, in fully lit up areas. (It might be a 1.16 bug, idk)

I think the claimexplosions resetting to off is intended, it does it automatically if you leave the server, even for a server reboot. I personally like it that way, because I don't want to log on forgetting that I had it on and have things be blown up on accident.

As for the iron topic, I think I'm roughly in the middle of already set out positions here, but should mention I'm not overly fussed either way this goes. Piglin bartering with iron nuggets, even if it was automatic, would not produce as much iron as a golem farm would unless you were to create a god-like gold farm - golem farms are ridiculously quick if you get them right. I think iron nugget bartering was added for a reason, and I don't really know why we would give up this if it is very intentionally a part of the game. I don't think golem farms are the same, as Mojang have tried to alter their mechanics in the past to nerf them. Finally, the iron isn't really free like they are in golem farms; you do have to trade gold. Gold is farmable though, so I guess compromises could be made to create a middle-ground solution.

I don't think many of the alternatives previously mentioned would solve this, but re-enabling nuggets* would. There are multiple compromises which could be made so this does not change things drastically:
Reducing chance of nugget drops, but still re-enabling them.
Reducing the number of max nuggets you can receive, but not reducing chance.
Only make nuggets obtainable if a player clicks the gold into the piglin's hand, so this is not a fully automatic farm.
Have some conditions which have to be met to allow piglins to drop iron nuggets, such as they only drop it during the same time villagers restock trades. (There are many options for this, just an example).

[Tezcatlip]

Post scriptum was a tasteless joke (I tend to humour myself), because it makes no sense to prevent iron form bartering and actually a very beneficial thing and certeintly was not a focus of the topic. Just to clarify the numbers: currently at the limit of hopper speed 1 bartering farm will produce 33.4 iron ingots per hour, while consuming 1200 gold ingots... That's a very... sensible (?) farm, especially, if one will reduce rates, force to click, etc... No, sorry, Sneaky, but that's just ridiculous. Clicky-clicky kinda forces autoclickers, which are obviously bannable, onto players. A design that funnels player to cheat is a very poor design, don't you think? Strictly speaking iron farm through zombies will produce 1-2 stacks of iron ingots per hour. I want to point out that it's not disabled in anyway and do not requre some weird extra conditioning or an extra decked-out supplementary farm. The whole idea that piglin bartering can be a viable iron farm in anyway is pure lunacy. Iron nuggets in bartering serve as an access to some iron for nether exclusive gameplay (nether skyblick or something?) and to balance weights with some filler items. Disabling nuggets from bartering by the way will increase yeild of other items by 2-3%, which is undoubtably a good thing. But disabling nuggets to prevent an iron farm is just a mockery.

As of an actual subject stats show, that I have mined 762k stone and 11.9k iron ore and I genuenly don't want to grind any more. So far I'd rather aquire iron from the end loot than mine, at least it has a rudimentary level of engagement. "Zz for the joy of exploring", "the iron isn't really free like they are in golem farms" (btw I wonder about the opinion about creeper farms in the same perspective) - ok, fine, no iron farms. Aren't there any other options then? I have suggested villager/travelling merchant trading and hoped to hear other creative suggestions.