[LVS] Council Pre-Meeting Agenda (6/4/2019)

[ABParadigm]

I think the reporting topic is a good idea. Finding you or Lady online is sometimes difficult, especially to the non-British side of the server, as you are typically asleep when I am awake. Be that as it may, this topic should be heavily pushed in the market, or constantly linked in listnotices, or it will not be utilized. The forums are not easily accessible by new members, and a player may be deterred to post a reply to that topic as a result. I'm not sure if you could tweak the topic but that is certainly a step that should be altered, if it isn't already the case, for that topic.

I still think the consequences should be more harsh, and I think a market ban would do that. I don't know if your thoughts differ after that conversation on LVS. If not a market ban, then more server bans should be issued, mistake or not. Underpayment is a serious breach of server rules in my opinion, and you shouldn't be making mistakes unless they are, as Dax said previously, texture pack (or minecraft/optifine bug) related. Simply not reading the properly stated price is unacceptable and a player should be reprimanded for underpayment accordingly. A quick warning is just not working.

[Zedwick]

In my experience, with the instances which have been reported and investigated, the majority of cases are first offenses or isolated incidents. I don't know if that is true for the rest which went unreported. It is impossible to say that warnings do not work as according to the testimony given earlier in this thread many would never have been given a warning as the crime went unreported.

[ABParadigm]

The issue as I've noticed is that the first-instance incidents should not occur in this scale. First offender or not, there should be some incentive to simply read a stated price. I understand you may not get all of the reports, and I'm not doubting that folks should be more driven to report it to you. Your thread can accomplish this. That doesn't mean every underpayment will still be reported.

Even if warnings do work, and my information is spotty on that matter, and hence invalid, there shouldn't be underpayments in the first place. I understand if it's bug or texture pack related; those should be accepted as a proper mistake. If someone simply doesn't read the price properly, however, it should be treated as proper theft, regardless of if it's a first-offender or not. You wouldn't walk into a grocery store, read the price as $1.00, and pay it, even if the price was $10.00. The cashier would stop you. We don't have cashiers, so we need something that would stop someone from underpaying in the first place.

[Aravero]

I want to take this opportunity to say goodbye to all of you. Some of you are my very best friends in the world. I am sorry I have been such a disappointment and proven to be so untrustworthy as to not be deserving of your friendship and your server.

I will accept my ban with all the good grace I can muster, and I hope y'all can see your way to forgiving me later.

Obviously, this means I won't be able to attend today's meeting.

I do have a few thoughts on the market issue.

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I agree that stealing flies in the face of the things that make this server great and as such should have a strong consequence. If it is stealing and not just a mistake, and if they are a Zedling to start with.

Recently I posted a video in which I stole merchandise from one of our markets. That was an accident and an oversight. I noticed in editing that I had failed to pay the acacia leaves I was supposed to pay to purchase my dillies. Then, I intentionally decided to leave it unpaid, just to stir up some comments on my video. Later, I was told that I had misunderstood the signs and so, it turns out, I had also grossly underpaid.

Some of you have seen that video. I read the signs twice in the video to double check that I understood the pricing system, and still did not get it right.

I also noticed in editing that there was inconsistency in how the prices were marked. One shop the price marked inside the chest I thought was someone's payment, in another shop I recognised the price markings as what they were. In another instance I saw the price just fine when it was marked on the sign above the chest, but then at the next chest completly didn't notice the price on the sign.

I think the first approach should be to encourage a standardized price labeling system. Start with the 9 diamonds rather than diamond block thing, that was suggested. I generally find it more convenient as a buyer when the sign says what's in the box and then there is an item inside the chest that says the price. But it would probably turn out to be bad practice to mark prices only inside the chests.
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At the risk of poking the bear, the squeakiest wheels here are also those who control huge shares of the market, who essentially control the prices for whatever products they do sell, and who have the highest volume of mechandise. That may be the only reason they feel like this is such a large problem. They are selling the most high priced goods and taking the most damage from what mispayment there is. But, at the same time, it's a numbers game, more opportunities for theft means they are victimized more frequently.
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I feel that higher priced items, say those worth more than a stack of diamonds, should be sold by private contract. Okay, maybe you will see less volume of sales because you are not online at the same time as BuyerG. But, it's also possible that there are people online with BuyerG who would sell but don't want to compete against the cartels in control of the market.

Additionally, it is possible for messages to be relayed and alternate delivery systems to be arranged. For example, BuyerG wants to buy an elytra, but that is not sold within the market because it is too valuable. BuyerG asks in chat and is referred to SellerA, but finds out SellerA is usually online at a time when they cannot meet up. BuyerG could be directed to leave a message for SellerA in the Post Office in the End, and they can work out a system for exchange that way.

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As to the issue of reporting mispayments, I think the forum thread is a huge step in the right direction. I would still like to see something enabled in game, if at all possible. I have known of some players in the past who were unable to access the forums due to parental restrictions or some such. I also know from personal experience how easy it is to flat forget that I wanted to do something in the forums.

I wonder if it would be possible to create a command, possibly a fork of the !coords command that a seller could trigger in the market when they discover a mispayment. It would record who triggered the command, their location, possibly detect the chest they are looking at and make a note of the time and date. (I imagine it might also need to have a function that detects a market within x radius, because you know how we are when we see someone use an unfamiliar command in chat.) Something quick like that might be a useful way to measure the frequency of the problem if nothing else. Would it be something Guardians could also use to follow up with a seller who did not follow through on a forum report?

Alternately, what if there was a command that a seller could use to indicate they have just restocked their inventory at ChestK, so that at a dead minimum a timeline can be established. Super wily buyers might also learn to recognise when their favorite seller has restocked a premium item.

It's possible that a command that triggers the report thread alone would be a huge step forward.

[Zedwick]

It's possible that a command that triggers the report thread alone would be a huge step forward.

I forgot to mention the command! The forum topic is currently available via !info marketcomplaints. I am unsure if this will be the permanent command as it's a bit of a niche topic which likely does not need to be promoted to any and all seeking info by listing the topics with !info, but that is the current command to link to it.

[AlyCatMeow]

Question; If you can have bait chests at spawn which auto-bans players who steal diamonds, why can't there be a code that lets Zedwick know there's been an underpayment or theft?
Then, upon review, Zed can talk to first time offenders, and ban repeat offenders at his own discretion (ya know, if they're doing it intentionally and there's no legitimate excuse for it)
I don't know a thing about coding, but my braining logic is telling me if one can be done, then logically speaking the other should be possible. I can accept defeat if it is, in fact impossible. But if it is, should it not be considered?? Just a thought.

All I know is, I get it that people make mistakes. I made a mistake the second time I tried to purchase. ABP was showing me the market, I first bought a shulker from him (correctly) then tried to buy a beacon and accidentally left diamonds instead of diamond blocks. He corrected me, I returned the merchandise, and from then on I was more careful when reading prices...

Human error is a thing and I agree it ought to be taken into consideration. But I seriously doubt recurring losses. like the ones described here, are attributed ENTIRELY to human error. That's just plain absurd.

[ABParadigm]

I want to take this opportunity to say goodbye to all of you. Some of you are my very best friends in the world. I am sorry I have been such a disappointment and proven to be so untrustworthy as to not be deserving of your friendship and your server.

I will accept my ban with all the good grace I can muster, and I hope y'all can see your way to forgiving me later.

Obviously, this means I won't be able to attend today's meeting.

Ah, I have been looking for the other side of the coin amidst this discussion thus far. You're right, and fair play. That being said, the dark bazaar rules were not clearly stated, to the point of saying one stack of dillies per !zedcoin command, not per !zedcoin unit. The market rules ARE clearly stated, complete with boards showing what a diamond and a diamond block look like, as well as how they are abbreviated in price chests. These are throughout the market. It shouldn't be that hard when there are a half dozen boards showing there is a difference between a D and a DB. Your dark bazaar example really isn't that accurate in this case.

I understand a mistake is a mistake, my issue regarding this topic is the harshness of a server ban in response to mistakes. Someone mistaking a price accidentally occurs, and I accept that it occurs more often than not. Personally, I believe the problem area lies in the harshness alone. I feel a server ban is not necessary, but having a potential market ban, which DOES NOT need to be a second offense to be issued, would be a good first step. This could be a one-day market ban, and slowly increase in length until it is necessary to be a server ban. The issue is, unless there is an IMMEDIATE consequence, failure to read will keep happening. There needs to be a reason to simply read properly in the market.

I think the first approach should be to encourage a standardized price labeling system. Start with the 9 diamonds rather than diamond block thing, that was suggested. I generally find it more convenient as a buyer when the sign says what's in the box and then there is an item inside the chest that says the price. But it would probably turn out to be bad practice to mark prices only inside the chests.

You're right, it would really help to make a single system for this. Personally, I trust the method you have given, having signs stating which item it sells, then a price tag inside, as more reliable, so you don't have to deal with possible texture pack weirdness.

I feel that higher priced items, say those worth more than a stack of diamonds, should be sold by private contract.

I completely disagree with this statement. I feel the market works because you can sell any item you so desire, regardless of how expensive.

[Zedwick]

Question; If you can have bait chests at spawn which auto-bans players who steal diamonds, why can't there be a code that lets Zedwick know there's been an underpayment or theft?

The bait chest system would not work, unfortunately. There is a potential system I have wanted to work on which would allow calculating purchases at the market and logging them, but it is a difficult problem to solve and would take considerable effort to engineer to be (mostly) accurate. I doubt it could be used to detect underpayments, but would aid in our investigation when an underpayment is reported. For now, it's not worth the effort to build such a system for the low volume of reports we've had. At-least whilst there are other projects I still need to work on to catch up to Minecraft 1.13+.

[Memery]

I will be unable to attend this upcoming meeting as I am going out with my hockey team for a night of frivolity. Lots of love from ya boi

[Forseth]

I probably won't be attending this meeting as I'm watching my sisters twins. Have a fun discussion